Race timing
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Reivers Dustin
Has anyone messed with race timing software at an SR race? (Er,
besides the San Juan Challenge.) I know there are some high end packages out there for major relays & multi-segment races. However, It might be useful to SR if there is a proven *simple* system for non-technical volunteers. There are two that I have heard about that simplify the competitors' finish inputs. These utilize hand-helds (Palm, etc.) to collect data, then synch this to a Windows program. I know this is in conflict with minimalism and low yearly dues. We might find that post race delays are enough of an irritant to justify a solution. In past years, when the last Lake Sammish racer finished the results were up within minutes. It seems as the entries exceed 50 or so, the results get unwieldy. I can find out later about how the SJC was managed, I've taken a position at Paccar. They provided tech support for that event. Reivers |
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Michael Lampi <lampi@...>
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-----Original Message----- Hi Reivers, These are my highly inflated $.02 on the matter: I was a proponent of this sort of thing and checked into some freeware and shareware stuff that looked like it could do the trick. Some of the earliest messages in this Yahoo group reflect the endeavor. When push came to shove at the Lake Sammamish race (which I direct), however, it was actually a lot easier to merely write down the times and boat numbers in a grid on a couple of large foam core boards than to enter this stuff on a PDA or laptop. The foam core boards were less likely to run out of batteries out in the cold and had no problems (using solvent-based markers) with airborne liquids impinging on their surfaces. I was able to start the awards ceremony for two races with different start times right after the last boat came in. We had only 55 boats, but I think we could easily have accommodated as many boats as we had numbers to hand out; i.e., 80. If there were more numbers we could have handled more boats. Ok, so it took 3 people to handle the timing. One person with the binoculars, one with the stop watch and one writing it down. The person with the binoculars would read off the boat number, which could normally be written down in advance of the boat actually crossing the finish line. When the line was crossed, the time was read aloud and written down. When multiple boats were going to cross within a short period a scratch pad was made with the list of boats. The order and times were quickly scribbled down by their numbers as they crossed the line and then transferred as permitted by gaps in the boats finishing. This "rush activity" happened only a couple of times at Lake Sammamish. When a boat had lost its number and crossed the line, the time was written down and the racer asked what their number was. (Associating the correct time - not the current time - during a race with the racer number could be an issue for some of the software packages I've seen.) In the "down" time between boats the person writing it down could cross reference to the signup board and fill in the name, class and place. Fixing errors was pretty simple, too, as there was enough space to write in the few corrections needed. My group handled two race finishes simultaneously. The task was simplified by having the second race start at an exact time offset from the first race (1 hour), and by having a distinct range of numbers for each race. Having the results written on the boards made them available for all to see after the race, too. I went a little out on a limb and handed out the awards in order of overall placement rather than by class. There were a couple of comments - none negative - and it made the task of making sure that each person entitled to a ribbon got one much easier. All you had to do was scan sequentially through the list. Is it possible to do this with fewer people and more electronics? Certainly. However, you'd need to make sure you had enough electrical power and protection from the elements to make it work. When the race was over it would be good to have some method of displaying the results, too, so a printer would be required. In terms of the human factors involved, you would still probably need a person with binoculars (or at least good eye sight) and a person running the electronics. It would be tough at times to have one person handling everything - unless you didn't care exactly which boat in a pack crossed the line first! --Michael Lampi |
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Steve Bennett
Reivers,
The Cascade race used timing software last year. I know nothing about the system, and assume that it was experimental. It might be interesting for you to look at the results as posted on the SR website as they show either the limitations of the system used or the application of that system: The timing system used doesn't appear be able to include "place in class", which should be listed and is of immediate importance to the race director for the purpose of awarding ribbons. The program ought also to be able to present names first names first, and not show times in hundredths of a second or display unnecessary zeroes in the hours column. It also ought to allow for the race director to make corrections such as time adjustments for late starters, and text corrections such as spelling of name. Also could you forward back to me the email I sent you yesterday regarding OC-1? I'd like to remember what I was thinking, don't know how to retrieve "sent" messages that were sent privately from a group site. Thanks. Also thanks for the complimentary posting about Sound Rowers at whatcompaddlers. I am taking the liberty of pasting it here so that our folks can appreciate your perspective, and our own group even more: Steve Reivers' whatcompaddlers posting: There is a lot going on for the Soundrowers (SR) leadership. There is a very active discussion going on about Race Insurance, SR sponsorship rules, Future Race Calendar, SR services for the more remote locations, and much more. With the increased popularity of the sport in Bellingham, SR is looking for synergy. Probably not many of us want to be club officers (all hail Yost for being a SR president!). However, what will help all involved is to monitor the Soundrower Yahoo group and throw in your two bits when you can. There is nothing quite like the Soundrowers organization anywhere else. They have played a key role in many of us participating in this hobby. Help it along in any small way that you can. rd --- In SoundRowers@..., "Reivers" <reivers@c...> wrote: & multi-segment races. However, It might be useful to SR if there isa proven *simple* system for non-technical volunteers. There are twoinputs. These utilize hand-helds (Palm, etc.) to collect data, then synchthis to a Windows program.justify a solution. In past years, when the last Lake Sammish racerfinished the results were up within minutes. It seems as the entries exceed50 or so, the results get unwieldy. |
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zeke_hoskin <zeke@...>
I wrote a race timing system as an exercise in interactive
databases. It wasn't particularly hard to do, but it would gave been an inconvenient amount of work to use it the first time, and it would have required a laptop that could run for the length of registration plus most of the time when boats were finishing. (It could be turned off after registration was cleaned up and turned back on when boats started to finish.) Using a computerized system would cause added stress to any volunteer who happens to fear and hate computers. I discussed it with Michael Lampi before the Lk Sammamish race and he decided not to use it. I don't know if anybody else looked at it seriously. There's a lot to be said for providing timers with big stiff waterproof timing sheets with boat numbers and lines painted or printed on them before the race. On the other hand, reorganizing race results between overall and class layout is trivial on a computer, time-consuming and error-prone done by hand, and a total pain in the butt if timing is manual and information then has to be keyed in after the race. I'd be willing to work with anybody who wants to try it out. I'd be even more willing if it could be linked to the member list -- once somebody is in the database (including his/her most probable boat class), registering a single is a matter of two or three keystrokes, and a double not much worse. I wouldn't be willing to provide the laptop (ours died) or skip the race (but I could help with registration, since I usually get a lot of help with launching). Once registration is done, all the timers have to do is turn on the computer and click the race start icon when the race starts, turn it off, turn it back on near the end of the race, and click the number button for each boat as it finishes. When the heat dies down, they can fix up the ones they missed (or clicked the wrong number). As long as nobody drops the computer into the salt chuck, it is then simple to display the results.//Zeke Hoskin |
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Reivers Dustin
The finish line is the battle zone for the volunteers. When I heard
of the timer programs that use a synch'able palmtop to log finishes, I was interested. I have used Palm products (in outdoor situations) and they can be durable. They can also be more expendable than a laptop. One of the programs uses multiple hand-helds to record finishes, then when they are synchronized to the main laptop there is a way to arbitrate or make corrections. This way you can use a couple of volunteers doing their thing at the finish line and pretty much capture most finishers in some way. The finishes are easy for the hand-held. The user just taps the boat number to capture time/place order of finish. For larger races the user may have to page to the boat number. One of these programs is a shareware deal. So the only expense is the hand-held. I guess that is a BIG only. All this is great. But Michael's observations are well considered. I agree with him: it's just probably not time for SR to get on this particular bleeding edge. We need a real gung-ho race director with a stack of savvy volunteers to show us how. Maybe we can corner Michael after a race and talk more. rd --- In SoundRowers@..., "zeke_hoskin" <zeke@z...> wrote: been an inconvenient amount of work to use it the first time, and itanybody else looked at it seriously.keystrokes, and a double not much worse.then simple to display the results.//Zeke Hoskin |
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Michael Lampi <lampi@...>
--- In SoundRowers@..., "Reivers" <reivers@c...> wrote:
hand-helds to record finishes, then when they are synchronized to the main laptop there isA handheld PDA can be obtained quite cheaply these days, especially if it is purchased from the used market. If the battery can be replaced or supplemented so that it can last for the duration of the registration process and the start and finishing of the race(s), then it might be an option to be explored. I have an older iPAQ and an ancient HP Jornada that could be used for such things along with keyboards for each. Both would need replacement batteries, unfortunately, as they would not be up to the task of powering the PDA's for a long enough period of time. Yes, I *could* take along their chargers and a UPS or two if that was the only option, but that would be a pain in the posterior. If a laptop were considered desirable for the data entry and results editing, then we would probably be able to do that on most any laptop without requiring the PDA keyboards - or possible in conjunction so we could have multiple data entry positions at registration. Zeke's program pretty much required a laptop only. I don't have one available with adequate battery life or that is modern enough and still expendable. A laptop at the finish line (end of a dock, etc.) would also be a pain in the arm to hold onto. The shareware timer programs I saw last year were pretty good, though each had their own problems and none seemed to be able to sync with other PDAs for merging results. Reivers, could you point me at them? Otherwise, we do have some technically savvy folks around here who might be cajoled into coming up with something. (Yeah, yeah. I'm a software engineer, too, and could probably come up with something if only I had the time.) Anybody game to try? --Michael Lampi P.S. We could give this scheme a try at the winter series of races. |
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Larry and Sue Bussinger <lbussinger@...>
The Ski to Sea has been using computerized timing
for years. I bet our program has been tweaked every year for the last
ten....or more, and the results are still questionable. But ours
is not simple. Four or five timers take time at every stage for every
racer on a palm pilot; read 28 timers! When the pilots down load, the
computer compares the times, throws out the obvious bad ones and asks input for
those in question. But we have several hundred racers on the hill finishing
in 15 minutes. Then it has to add in the next leg. Then it has to
compensate for legs that don't finish, but the next leg takes off. And
what about the paddlers that have to take off at 5:00pm. but then their Mt.
Biker finishes. Or people trade places or substitute. But God help
you if you make a mistake.
Don't use our program!!!
Do a one day race with the food and speaker
and prizes. You'll burn out your volunteers with a two day race....which
is what I think you've found out. People are too busy these days to want
to commit to two days.
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